tv_talk | Bates Motel: Primer and Homebase

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Bates Motel: Primer and Homebase

Norman and Norma Bates sitting on a motel bed with neon "Bates Motel" sign above them

Welcome to the homebase for the A&E series, Bates Motel. Each week you'll find a thread for the newest episode, so we can discuss its twists and horrors together.

First, a primer.

Bates Motel is a modern day prequel to Hitchcock's Psycho, centering on Norman and his mother, Norma, as they move to the titular motel in a coastal Oregon town. Norma is hoping for a new start for herself and Norman after her husband's death, and buying and running the run-down motel is her plan. Of course, there are plenty of unforeseen complications, especially since the town has a touch of Twin Peaks strangeness and corruption to it.

I know what you're thinking. A Psycho prequel? Really? Two things should convince you to give the show a shot: its pedigree and its cast. Among others, the series is (executive) produced by Carlton Cuse (Lost) and Kerry Ehrin (Friday Night Lights). It both builds intrigue and mysteries while creating complex characters. And then it scares the crap out of you.

Cast/Characters (As of Season 2)

Vera Farmiga plays Norma Bates.

Vera Farmiga as Norma Bates

She's high-strung, cloying, yet honestly put-upon and sincerely caring. She's smart but vulnerable at times. You may not be able to stand her at all, and you may deeply sympathize with her, all within one episode.

Freddie Highmore plays Norman Bates.

Freddie Highmore as teenage Norman Bates

Freddie Highmore as teenage Norman Bates

Like Norma, you might feel sorry for Norman or be terrified or horribly creeped out by him in the space of a breath. Often he's simply a normal teenage boy by all appearances, crushing on girls, wanting his own space, sneaking out late at night. Buuut then there's the blackouts and weird stuff he keeps under his bed...

Max Thieriot plays Dylan Massett.

Max Thieriot as Dylan Massett

Dylan is Norma's other, older son, and Norman's half-brother. He's more of an outsider, and drifts into town and into their lives against Norma's wishes. He clashes with the family, especially when he urges Norman to live his own life, but he proves indispensable, too.

Olivia Cooke plays Emma Decody.

Olivia Cooke as Emma Decody

Emma is a smart, inquisitive girl in Norman's class who quickly develops an interest in him. She has cystic fibrosis and sees Norman's own strange health issues and outsider-y status as something akin to hers.

Nestor Carbonell plays Sheriff Alex Romero.

Nestor Carbonell as Sheriff Romero

As sheriff, Romero and Norma butt heads as she struggles to accomplish what she wants with the motel and deals with, er, other complications. Given the town's penchant for ongoing shady activities, Romero is someone who is tough to read.

You can stream Season 1 episodes on Netflix, Amazon, and at the A&E site.

The second season begins Monday, March 3rd! Episodes air at ~~9/8c~~ 10/9c.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Feel free to post thoughts about characters, Season 1 episodes, or anything else Bates Motel-related here!

What did you think about tonight's episode?

Norma: still my favourite. That outburst in front of the city council was an instant classic. It's one of those cases where on the one hand, you know the other party is right - the by pass is far more useful to the town - but on the other, there's Norma and her happiness when the motel FINALLY started to get in some guests, not to mention the horrid Psycho ordained fate hanging over her neck, and you just root for her.

What I appreciate in this show is that the mixture of the everyday and the awful are so well done. So, you have Norma teaching Norman how to drive a car and it goes about as well as parent-children driving lessons go (seriously, you don't have to be a member of the Bates clan for this to be a bad idea), and Norman passive-aggressively returning the favour, which is about as normal as it gets, while on the other hand you have that continuing ticking time bomb that consists of Norma's awareness he's killed before and of Norman's rage black outs and unability to remember, and Miss Watson's death in the s1 finale. Now, the show left it open last season whether or not Norman killed Miss Watson, though every sign was certainly pointing towards his doing it (except for the phone call he overheard); the s2 opener with Bradley attempting suicide in the teaser (when she definitely wasn't in a suicidal state in the s1 finale where we left her) still points this way (Norman has Blair Watson's pearls), but also suggests, via Bradley's reaction, the alternate possibility Bradley might have killed her. (Also, there's the parallel of the s1 opener where you're made to assume Norma killed her husband when it actually was Norman.) (I would add Gil to the list of suspects, but I doubt they'd have killed him off in this episode if he'd done it, and also, Bradley's attempted suicide would then be coming out of nowhere.) So my current guess is that Norman might not have killed Miss Watson after all but WILL kill Bradley before this season is over. Bradley killing Gil who she assumes killed her father and asking Norman for help in the cliffhanger also supports that theory for me.

Mystery man standing over Blair Watson's grave: probably has nothing to do with her death but has something to do with the local weed industry, which is one reason why Sheriff Romero smoothly changes the subject on Norman, correctly deducing Norman feels guilty himself. Romero continues to be a man of ambiguous mystery, and I enjoyed both his scene with Norman and his conversation with Norma afterwards.

Just one scene with Dylan and Norma, but it brings on the brittleness and push-pull of that other mother-son relationship; his attempting to pay rent and not just implicitly but explicitly admitting he wants to stay and her reaction were great. Incidentally, considering the by pass is about to happen, I assume Norma will be forced to accept the weed money soon. I do wonder whether she'll tell Dylan - aka the only other person currently aware of Norman's rage blackouts - what she's just found out re: Norman and Miss Watson. On the one hand, Norma is such a determined "we'll pretend this never happened and continue with our lives" denialist, otoh, she also has moments where she desperately needs to talk, and she hardly can tell Sheriff Romero.

Norma's outburst in the city council was my favorite too, especially the bit where she responds to the proposed book banning (Crime and Punishment: perfect). And the driving scene was hilarious. I love Vera Farmiga and Freddie Highmore in these roles so much!

I assumed Bradley had killed Miss Watson after the opening, too, but by the end that appeared to me to be a red herring. She genuinely seemed not to have known that "B" was Miss Watson when she was told. It is still confusing how/why she came to be so distraught after the dance and jump off the bridge. However, I think you're right in that Norman could kill her by the end of the season; it doesn't matter if she in fact didn't kill Miss Watson, only that Norman thinks she did, and there will be plenty pointing that way (I'm thinking there could be conversations with Dylan, for instance). Also, I do think it could be Gil (or a lackey or phone guy from last season; have we met an "Eric" yet?) and all these narrative complications could still work.

Ah, Dylan. Most decent guy on the show despite working in the drug business?

I like that Emma is a bit more prickly with Norman (in her one scene) but still working at the motel. I loved her and Norma together last season.

Aaaand Norman gets more and more into taxidermy. I laughed a little at both Norma and Romero saying he needs to get out and be a normal teenager. Norma seems to have loosened the leash in that regard a little.

The use of "Crime and Punishment" reminds me of how Lost constantly included characters reading or referencing books, so I suspect Carlton Cuse of this part in the script. :) And yes, perfect.

No, we haven't met an Eric yet, unless it's the mystery man visiting Miss Watson's grave, but I suspect we will soon.

re: Norman eventually killing Bradley, another reason for assuming this is because he now knows she's killed someone. Not that he won't sympathize with her on the Gil/my-father's-killer matter, but he won't see her on a pedestal anymore as he used to, and that could be enough for his buddying psychosis in a moment of crisis, especially if he assumes she also killed Miss Watson.

Emma and Norma: loved them together last season, too. Emma basically was the only person in that town who didn't regard Norma as crazy and/or was sexually attracted to her and/or trying to exploit her, and while Norma originally had Norman-related and cover-up reasons for being nice to Emma, I think she came to genuinely like Emma. Hooray for friendly relations between two female characters! So yes, I'm glad Emma is still working at the motel.

Ah, Dylan. Most decent guy on the show despite working in the drug business?

Well, the competition for that title isn't great in that town, but based on the little we know I think Emma's father the taxidermist from Manchester might have first dibs. :) Seriously, though, I know what you mean. I wonder, though, what Dylan will do when his bosses tell him to hurt/kill someone?

I laughed a little at both Norma and Romero saying he needs to get out and be a normal teenager. Norma seems to have loosened the leash in that regard a little.

I think Norma having been mostly happy during those three months might have something to do with that. No more people putting dead bodies in her bed and threatening her (and her sons') life plus the motel finally getting (non-crazy) guests equalling a more relaxed Norma capable of giving Norman a bit more freedom, too. And then of course with Miss Watson dead and Bradley in the hospital the two people she felt competitive re: Norman about were not an issue anymore.

Hee, discussing this show makes me chuckle. Norma's happy because there are no dead bodies in her bed! No young hussy to compete with for her son's affections! (I don't think Miss Watson was on her radar in that regard.) No crazy motel guests! Also the bypass delay (that is now no longer delayed).

When I rewatched the first season recently, that hug between Emma and Norma was one of my favorite things. Good point about Emma being an exception as far as how people in town were treating Norma.

I thought perhaps Dylan would be faced with the sort of orders and decision you mention in this episode, with Bradley. I still think that could happen, that he'll be forced to "deal with" Bradley violently. And his relationship with Norman will get tangled up in that.

Your thoughts on the second episode of the season go here.

My first thought is that the episode title is the name of a Hitchcock movie, like Psycho. Coincidence?!

Good point about the title; Shadow of a Doubt has of course our heroine Charlie figuring out her beloved Uncle Charlie is a ruthless killer.

Other thoughts: Last week I was wondering what Dylan would do once his drug bosses start asking him to kill people. This week we get part of an answer, as Bradley shooting Gil is mistaken for a gang murder resulting in White Pine getting its very own drug war, and Dylan finds himself holding the guy one of his bosses shoots in retaliation. Since you don't peacefully quit the drug business, if I were Dylan, I'd leave town immediately after that one and start anew far, far away, but of course he won't because his loved-hated family is here.

Meanwhile, Norman helps Bradley first hide and then leave town. (Sidenote: which means that for now, Bradley's survival odds have suddenly become far, far better, but I have the suspicion she will return for the season finale, or something. If not, I wish her well. She wasn't my favourite, but I like her well enough, and do wish she survives.) This is Norman at his best, since it is genuinely selfless; as far as he knows, he won't see Bradley again, so he doesn't do it in the hope she'll finally return his crush, and when things come to a crisis, he even swallows his pride and asks Dylan for help despite his jealousy caused by the Dylan/Bradley flirting. At the same time, the show never lets us forget there is this other side to Norman, as Norma finds Miss Watson's pearls (as she once found the belt of the man who raped her and whom she and Norman killed) under Norman's bed, which screams trophy.

The episode had some terrific Norma and Norman scenes, showcasing their relationship in both its deep dysfunctionality and its charm. The scene where Norma cajoles Norman into singing "Mr. Sandman" with her is on one level two people having fun (and Norma's very Norma-esque idea of combatting her son's potential serial killer tendencies via shared singing actually paying off), and on another Norma manipulating Norman into something he didn't want to do (which of course heightens his sense if being trapped). Both are true. Ditto for the community musical auditioning, quite aside of Norman being under pressure because it means he can't personally help Bradley and needs Dylan to fill in. Norma is both utterly sincere in her "I'm so scared" outburst - the possibility that her son might develop into a monster scares the hell out of her - and she's using a real emotion for manipulation at the same time (getting Norman to stay). Similarly, Norman is being utterly sincere in his outburst about how much of their lives are intertwined already and how they don't need any MORE shared time, how he resents Norma making him go along with her ideas all the time, and he's using this as an excuse because he's still trying to get home to help Bradley at that point. And when he's giving in and remaining for the rest of the audition, it's to placate Norma (and distract her from her fears re: his potentially having murdered Miss Watson), but once he does hear Norma sing that song from Cabaret, the amazement and adoration for her are palpable and he really wants to be there.

Incidentally, Maybe this time is of course the perfect song for Norma and so very her. Also, part of the Bates tragedy is that with all her desperation to help Norman, the one thing that would probably help (and thus eventually save her own life), a good psychiatrist and lots of therapy, is the one thing she is shying away from, because Norma with her own broken background of a physically abusive father, a sexually abusive brother and at least one physically abusive husband distrusts any authority figures far, far too deeply to consider it.

Sheriff Alex "Still Morally Ambiguous as hell" Romero might be an exception to that, given he came through in the Abernathy situation, but he's not a therapist. In this episode, he eventually decides to pin Blair Watson's murder on a scum-of-the-earth type who may or may not be involved but did have sex with the late Miss Watson, on the rationale that a) the guy may not have killed Miss Watson, but he did kill a previous girlfriend and should have been locked up a long time ago, and b) Romero really needs a culprit for the Watson murder, what with an impending drug war at his hand. (There's another irony: if Romero would have investigated further, he might have discovered that Norman at the very least was on the crime scene and thus saved Norman's future victims.) Nestor Carbonnel has a lot more to do this season and obviously enjoys the part, and I enjoy him playing it.

And in the cliffhanger tag scene, we have a new arrival in town who is none other than Norma's brother. Aka the one who raped her from the time she was 13 years old onwards. Him showing up this season was the only thing I was spoiled for, but even if I had managed to avoid this particular spoiler it wouldn't have completely surprised me because the revelation in the s1 finale demanded some follow up. Now, it would surprise me if he were to survive the season, but I hope whatever will happen won't include another rape before that. (Enough of those last season.) I also wonder whether he'll turn out to be Dylan's biological father, as opposed to Norma's first husband, because that would make sense in terms of the different type of dysfunctionality the Norma and Dylan relationship has. But if he is, I'm 100% sure Dylan has no idea, considering the only one whom Norma ever told the truth about her family was Norman on the day where she expected to die. However, this particular skeleton in the family cupboard looks like it's going to explode in the open soon.

Lastly: I do hope Emma gets more screentime next episode!

MTE on the episode pretty much!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who had that thought about Norma's brother being Dylan's father. Once I saw who they cast and saw what I figured might be an intended resemblance my mind went there. I'm wondering if some people were already thinking that at the end of last season.

Once again my favorite scene is a Norma scene: how perfect was she singing "Maybe This Time"? I didn't know Vera Farmiga could sing. I teared up and everything.

Your description of Norma and Norman's dysfunctional relationship, and Norma's reactions in particular, speaks to my favorite thing about the show, and I can't imagine any other actors pulling off these roles and that relationship so well. I hadn't thought about Norman's acquiescence serving as a distraction from Norma's suspicions. Like they're both distracting one another from the same thing. I'm not sure it's possible for Norma to be dissuaded from her notion, but Norman doesn't know what she knows (about what happened to his father). At least there's relief since Romero arrested someone for it, lol.

Dylan's (relative) good guy status does seem to be holding up so far. Maybe his uncle will test that?

I liked Bradley, too. I know the actress is leaving for another project but could certainly return (they didn't kill her anyway!). I thought they handled things a little strangely with her in the pilot to get her to where they needed her to leave and start this drug war storyline, but the note she left Norman was sweet (if, you know, darkly ironic).

I look forward to more Emma, too.

I've seen some speculation at the end of s1 about the brother being Dylan's father, in a German blog.

Maybe this Time was perfect for Norma. And Vera Farmiga was couragous - which paid off - to sing it without any musical support. Having no piano or another instrument made the song sound even more intense and vulnerable.

I do wonder whether it would make a difference to Norman if Norma told him the truth about his father. But probably not.

re: Dylan and his uncle: I'm very curious. Unlike Norman, Dylan doesn't know what the man did, so unless Norman or Norma tell him and unless the guy behaves badly towards him, it's entirely possible Dylan might see him as an ally at first. Depending on how smart and manipulative the man is, he could even try to use Dylan's old resentments against Norma, growsing about how she leaves her family behind without warning, marries jerks, etc., or he could claim that she was their father's favourite so Dylan identifies with him, seeing them both as neglected older brothers.

I'm betting that's exactly where the storyline is going with Dylan and Norma's brother. And Norman and Dylan's relationship will suffer.

The show now airs at 10/9c!

Norma's brother comes to town...

It says something about this show that when we meet new characters who are nice to Norma and Norman respectively, we immediately have to wonder what their sinister secret and agenda will be. Mind you, my current guess is that redheaded stagehand with gay pal who was nice to Norman might just be a normal teenager, whereas Christine the redheaded former casting director of the community theatre clearly is living really well with her husband, which in this town translates as: is involved with the drug business. So I'm assuming the other shoe will drop soon, though poor Norma, she was so delighted to be befriended by her. Jury is still out on ~~Vaughn~~ Vartan's character, if only because the last few men hitting on Norma were villains, so surely the show wouldn't do this to her again?

Never mind the people who were nice to two third of the leading family, though, because the big sinister guest star wasn't any of them. They cast Norma's brother Caleb really well, because not only was there physical similarity to Dylan but the actor was very good at the hail-fellow-well-met bluff harmlessness projection that guaranteed Dylan would believe him and want him as a family member. He also, like the best liars, used a truth - their father used to beat Norma and Caleb - to make Dylan swallow the lie (that this was the reason why Norma reacted to Caleb's arrival with such horror). I had expected Caleb to draw Dylan in but I hadn't expected the literal con at the same time (i.e. that money for "a hotel in Puerto Rico"), which explains why he shows up at all. (And the timing couldn't be worse. However this ends up, Dylan is now newly out of cash and the prospects he'll be able to quit his job in the rapidly escalating drug war are now less than zero.) By the way, I had speculated about the final revelation before, but when Norma the first time Dylan asked her about her brother didn't tell him anything (which btw was a heartrendering scene, both for the way he was practically pleading to be trusted with what was going on inside her and for the knowledge why she couldn't), I was sure. It didn't make the scene when the truth did come out less devastating. Starting with the fact Dylan doesn't believe Norma and accuses her of lying to him in order to hurt him. Not that Norma isn't a liar on occasion, but her lies are usually designed to cover up horrors, to pretend things are better than they actually are. Her biggest lies, as Dylan has reason to know, are also to protect people. It occurs to me that her previous silence about her brother, the rapes and who really fathered Dylan even when relations between her and Dylan were at their worst and he called her a whore in the past are a parallel to her silence about Norman having killed his father even when both Norman and Dylan basically accused her of doing it.

Norman coming in the middle of the Dylan-Norma argument makes everything worse, of course, though then again: the Norman/Dylan fight escalated things to the point where Norma in order to separate them screams out the rest of the secret, and at this point I don't think anyone will be in denial any more. I also felt tremendously sorry for the three of them in their dysfunctional love for each other and brokenness.

Minor other plot points:

- if Nick Ford is Miss Watson's father, was Blair Watson her married name then? or was she illegitimate?
- was there even a Mr. Masset or did Norma just pretend there had been pre-marrying Sam Bates?
- poor Emma. Also, Emma is such a real character, and the teenagers on this show, other than looking far better (and older) than actual teenagers, are pretty realistic too. Feeling guilty about Bradley's supposed suicide precisely because they weren't friends and Emma was jealous, and trying to organize a memorial get together which inevitably becomes a beach party is just what would happen.
- how DOES one stop an escalating drug war where each side is convinced the other started it and both have killed too many to even care if they find out otherwise?
- Michael Vartan was pretty one note for the most part of Alias, but he does pull off the charming stranger bit here.

It really is something that, even though I suspected that Caleb was going to turn out to be Dylan's father and that suspicion only grew stronger as the episode went on, the reveal at the end was still huge. And yeah, I felt bad for them, Dylan and Norma especially. It explains so much for Dylan but in no way resolves anything. And I felt bad for Norma when Dylan won't believe her about the rapes, though there's a look in his eye where I wondered if maybe he kind of did believe but was in denial. Dylan is a savvy character but in this instance gets caught up in the web of emotions tied to his family and wanting to move on at the same time.

I also wondered about Dylan's supposed father. My guess is that there was a Mr.Masset, but I can't remember if something was said about him last season.

I could not even remember who Nick Ford was when I saw him. I just knew I recognized him!

I love Emma, too, and was glad to see pot brownie boy again, lol. I look forward to getting to know this new girl and what her deal with her dad is (that seemed weird).

How lovely did Norma/Vera look in that dress with the pink shawl? And the whole time I was waiting for the other shoe to drop, too. Like you, I wouldn't be surprised if her new friend was involved with the drug trade, especially given that one particular guest at the end, but I also thought about something that might be linked to the bypass? I don't know.

I only enjoyed Vartan as Vaughn when Vaughn occasionally went "dark," so I wouldn't mind that. :) At the same time, it would be nice if Norma had a break. But then it wouldn't be Bates Motel.

It explains so much for Dylan but in no way resolves anything.

Yes indeed. Norma must have been, what, 17 when she had him, coming directly from a home with a brutal father and a rapist brother; no good odds for balanced motherhood even without the additional factor that Dylan was the product of that abuse. It explains to him why she was different with Norman - who had a different father, came to be by her choice, and whom she had when she was older - but as you said, it doesn't resolve anything. I'm also reminded of one of the earliest s1 episodes, it might even have been Dylan's introduction episode, where he taunts her about Norman and she defends herself and says "we love each other; this is normal, this is how a mother and son should be, not this", i.e. her and Dylan, but of course both of her relationships with her sons are screwed up, and Norma has never experienced anything "normal" to compare them to, and yet they're all three trying so hard.

And I felt bad for Norma when Dylan won't believe her about the rapes, though there's a look in his eye where I wondered if maybe he kind of did believe but was in denial.

Not to be believed about something as major as this has to be every abuse victims worst nightmare (and of course confirms a life long habit of not telling anyone for Norma). I think the problem for Dylan was twofold: both because Caleb had seemed to him like the relation he always wanted, someone who wants similar things, who understands, and because he identified with him (behold, someone else whom Norma has run away from without leaving a forwarding address! And one of Dylan's reasons for showing up in her house had been because he was broke, let's recall). And with Norma and her sons, there is always a certain subtext. So in addition to everything else, for her to make that accusation about a man he identifies with was probably like some nightmare about his own subconsious goings on getting ripped open. So it couldn't be true. Presumably he would have believed her if she'd told him the first time he asked, but I can understand why she didn't. She told Norman only on an evening where she thought she might die, and then her brother was far away and not at her doorstep. In addition to everything else, she had to be scared as hell.

I also wondered about Dylan's supposed father. My guess is that there was a Mr.Masset, but I can't remember if something was said about him last season.

Me neither, other than Dylan accusing Norma of leaving his father for Sam Bates. But depending on when she's supposed to have done that, he might simply assume as opposed to remember. I mean, I can see a panicked pregnant Norma marrying the first guy who came along and seemed likeable just in order to get away from home in a way that would make it impossible for her father and brother to take her back... only then later to find out that the marriage doesn't work. But I can also see Norma leaving town on her own, arrive somewhere else with a baby and a new name and pretend to be a divorced woman. What makes me assume there was a Mr. Masset is that Dylan obviously had no curiosity about who his father might be; he must have been sure he knew.

How lovely did Norma/Vera look in that dress with the pink shawl?

Very. They dress her in this 50s/early 60s type clothes which is a great homage to Psycho as well as fitting the character and the actress superbly.

It occurs to me that since Nick Ford heads one of the two major drug operations in town - presumably the one Dylan ISN'T working for - there'll be a connection between those storylines soon. Unfortunately, I also suspect Caleb must have deduced there is one likely reason why Dylan had that much money available and decides to stay and work for the local drug trade as well, just because that's the worst case scenario for the family. And then it's an open guess as to tries to kill him first.

...and now I've googled for reviews in general about this episode and saw a lot which were uncertain whether Norma was telling the truth or was lying as Dylan accused her to. Which - what? My explanation for this sadly is the kneejerk rape culture reaction that the "hysterical woman" must be a liar. (Sidenote: reaction on the part of the audience, I mean, not on Dylan's part because Dylan's reaction has a whole lot of other factors.) The show had established this part of Norma's backstory before in the s1 finale (and now that I think of it, perhaps precisely so the audience would know), in a situation where Dylan or her brother weren't anywhere nearby, so the motive which the reviewers and Dylan assume she has for lying doesn't apply. Also,as I said before: yes, Norma is quite ready to lie at times, and yes, she's a manipulator. But usually not both at the same time. When she's being manipulative with Norman (most recent example: when she wanted him to audition for the musical with her), she uses true emotion to pressure him (the fact she's scared). Whereas when she lies, her lies are usually to cover bad things up (most recent example: asking her gynacologist about "her sister" having blackouts; other good examples include all the lies to Sheriff Romero about the rapist whom she killed, the classic didn't see him, nothing happened, or her lies to the therapist she very briefly saw last season about how lovely her childhood was. Norma's lies are all about how something is better (or didn't happen at all) than it actually is. She's the queen of denial, not of spreading gloom. When did we ever see/hear her lie about something being worse than it actually was/is?

In conclusion, I'm really confused by "if Norma isn't lying again" reactions on this particular issue.

Oh ugh. I'm totally with you. As you say, beyond the awfulness of questioning (not to mention, we've also seen her raped on the show in the very first episode!), I think it's poor reading to assume she's lying. It honestly didn't even occur to me. I suppose the fact that she told Norman about it when she thought she was going to die made it clear to me that she wasn't making it up. And say she was lying then; what was her motivation?

All the points you bring up make sense too, especially the therapist. I also think about her scar and the way she touches it in this episode.

Norma's actually not a good liar, and when she's being manipulative, we can see right through it, and so does Dylan (and even Norman). When you watch that scene in the kitchen at the end of this episode, there's nothing but honest emotion, and I think it kills Norma to have to say what she does.

The only alternative I can imagine others might be suggesting here, is if it was consensual incest and she's ashamed. But I still don't buy that for all the reasons we've discussed.

It never occured to me, either, before reading those reviews, so the third time I came across it I was fuming and had to vent here!

Norma's actually not a good liar, and when she's being manipulative, we can see right through it, and so does Dylan (and even Norman).

Yes. That's why Romero suspected her from the start re: the guy she killed (but also why he knew she didn't make the threat by Abernathy up). I think the most successful major lie we've seen Norma pull off was covering up what happened to her husband, and that one wasn't believed by Dylan (though he came to the wrong conclusion regarding her reason for lying at first), and Norman only half bought it. Otherwise, she's only succesfully lying when people don't know her, and even then - I doubt, for example, that the gynacalogist bought the "oh, I'm talking about my sister" excuse.

When you watch that scene in the kitchen at the end of this episode, there's nothing but honest emotion, and I think it kills Norma to have to say what she does.

Everyone is so raw in that scene. And it's so clear she never ever wanted Dylan to know.

The only alternative I can imagine others might be suggesting here, is if it was consensual incest and she's ashamed. But I still don't buy that for all the reasons we've discussed.

*nods* I could see Norma being ashamed of a backstory of consensual incest, too, but then she wouldn't have responded with such stark fear and horror when she saw her brother in the kitchen.

Incidentally, I think some people also assume that rape is only rape if you fight back and literally have to be held down all the time. Whereas especially in family situations like Norma's, the emotional force often is enough, i.e. the victim is told that this is okay, this is the right of the perpetrator, and if she/he doesn't let it happen they're being disobedient/disloyal/a traitor etc. Note that Caleb says to Dylan that Norma was "such a trusting little girl". (Ugh.)

Speaking of the rape in the pilot: Norma's absolute conviction that nobody would believe her of if they did would blame her if as Norman first suggested they'd tell the police makes me wonder whether she tried that, as a girl, and nobody did believe her then, or blamed her.

Something else, though: the one thing both Norma (in her confession to Norman) and her brother said when talking about their childhood was that their father was physically abusive to both of them, so I'm assuming that's true. What do you want to bet that one of them ended up killing him? Because there's no mention of him being alive.

YES to your last three points in particular. Didn't Caleb also refer to her as "pretty," too, or am I misremembering? Either way, how he refers to her when they were young has creepy written all over it.

I would not be surprised if Norma and Caleb's father was killed by one of them, and my money would be on Caleb. My impression of Norma given events last season (asking Dylan for a gun so she could protect herself but clearly being very nervous about the follow-through) is that she's never killed anyone.

Thoughts on tonight's episode go here.

First of all, I'm not sure whether the episode I watched was complete. This happened before with another show, where I didn't notice I was missing several scenes until talking with people about it. So, in case this happened here, do tell whether there was another scene (or more) after the one with Norman and Cody in her car after she picked him up at the coffee shop?
I'm starting to lose sympathy for Dylan, my friends. Yes, it's a terrible shock to find out you're the product of a) incest and b) rape. But one would think even shocked person is aware that being the victim of a) incest and b) rape is even worse. Instead, Dylan sees himself as the only victim here, continues to treat Norma as the bad guy and to blame her for the entire thing, and gives her brother the benefit of the doubt. Note that even when confronting Caleb, Dylan is avoiding the word "rape" and instead says "you had sex with my mother"; later he tells Norma outright that she didn't get raped and blames her for the incest and for not aborting him, for "using me" to get out of her house and "trapping" a high school boyfriend into marriage instead. This is really revolting victim blaming and rape culture at its worst, and reeling from shock & having had a troubled relationship with your mother before that only excuses so much.

It's also a marked contrast to Norma's own behavior. To be fair, I'm sure there were times in the past where Norma looked at Dylan and saw her brother instead of the child whose fault it was not, but in the present, Norma isn't doing that; instead, she's being as gentle with him as we've ever seen her, and in their last confrontation sums it up when saying that neither of them was to blame for what Caleb did. Dylan having issues with Norma in general is understandable, but that he's so willing to blame her instead of feeling at least for the girl she was if he can't for the woman she is, instead blaming her, that I find hard to forgive.

Norman of course carries it to the other extreme. Not only does he side with Norma but he internalizes her. The show had Norman hallucinate Norma before when going into one of his blackouts, but this is the very first time we've seen her literally becoming her (or his version of her), and it's in a tragic irony that he does so in order to do what the real Norma could not, confront her brother and accuse him point blank. It was an incredibly creepy and effective scene when Norman started to speak in the first person as Norma, even before he pulled the Psycho-iconic knife. Of course, he's still a boy while Caleb is a man, so Caleb easily disarms him. (Adding a kick while Norman is down. Last week when I checked the media reviews I was stunned to discover several were uncertain whether or not Norma was telling the truth, because that Caleb was just such a nice rational guy, I suppose, as opposed to "hysterical", mean Norma. I do hope the way Caleb responded in this scene settled that, but then again: rape culture.)

It was also fascinating that earlier, Norman while still himself couldn't go through with attacking Caleb by rebar as Cody had suggested, and I do wonder whether this is because he's semi aware/afraid by now that he might be more than capable of such violence in his blackout states. After all, Dylan gave him a heavy hint early in the episode. In terms of where Norman is headed, him becoming Mother for the first time in order to punish someone who had hurt her so badly is one of those twists that completely work and which you still didn't see coming.

Meanwhile: Emma's plotline with her weed-consuming admirer becomes downright endearing as he turns out to be a decent guy who doesn't want to have sex with passed out girls and doesn't expect her to reward him for being a nice guy, either. Also, he really seems to appreciate her. I find myself warming up to this pairing.

The escalating drug war just turned up yet another notch as despite Alex Romero's warning Dylan's idiotic new boss decides to move on to torching houses. However, Romero tends to follow up on his warnings, so I am confident the idiot won't be around for much longer.

Nope, that's where the episode ended.

This episode was a lot about being on the inside or outside (or feeling that way). Emma points out how close she's been with Norma, Norman, and Dylan when she asks what's going on (and later she notes that Norma won't like Cody), but Norman ends up telling Cody more than he does her. Dylan of course understands why he's been on the "outside" of the family his whole life, but I thought it was interesting that he hints at what Norman doesn't know about himself--something Norma confided in Dylan. I suppose you could also extend the inside/outside theme to Norma and White Pine Bay society. And, ultimately, Norman goes so inside he internalizes and becomes Norma.

"The truth" seems to be the dividing line for who's inside and who feels left out (who knows it and who doesn't) and also prevents people from seeing truth (in the case of Dylan). I thought this episode was really heart-wrenching all around (except for the nice contrast of Emma and Gunner, which is still mixed up in Emma's different view of her mortality).

I feel bad for both Norma AND Dylan. We've been living with the idea of what happened to Norma since the season one finale. But this is literally the day after Dylan's learned who Caleb really is. He's lived his life feeling excluded from this family without knowing why (and now we know why, although we might have guessed). He meets a family member he's never known about who confirms his view of his mother and is, as Dylan says, nicer to him than Norma generally is (this episode, when Norma's at her most tender, tucking Dylan in, he's passed out and doesn't witness her tenderness). He gets this bomb dropped on him, but when he sees Caleb again, after he says "You had sex with my mother," note that after that he says, "You MADE her have sex with you." Note also that this is the way that Norma first expressed things to Norman when she told him. Then there's this weird thing where Caleb is genuinely surprised to hear Dylan say he's his son and proclaims that it wasn't "exactly" like that, and Norma got pregnant by her high school boyfriend, whom she married. Dylan asks if he's calling his mother a liar, and Caleb says no. He gives him the money back, which indeed makes it at least seem like he wasn't grifting him.

Later when Norma asks to talk (something Dylan had asked to do before), it reads to Dylan like another instance of Norma thinking about herself as she asks him not to make things harder for her than they already are. She tells him to be strong and put it behind him, which is the Norma way of dealing with things. To be fair, it does feel here like she's not expressing how big a deal this is for him or not understanding why he can't "put it away" as she's had to do all these years. When Norma brings up that Caleb is a bad person and just wanted money, of course it's the perfect opportunity for Dylan to rationalize that he's not since he gave the money back (honestly, I'm still not sure why Caleb did or if this was partially his intent or if he just wanted to wash his hands of everything, surprised that Norma told and/or has a different way of seeing things).

In the final confrontation, Dylan does seem to be sticking with Caleb's version of the story to start, calling it Norma's "mess." She reiterates that she was raped, and he says Caleb has a different version. Norma says that's because Caleb didn't know; she never told anyone. And this is the moment when Dylan asks why she had him, which is heart-stopping. He lays out the theory that she "got knocked up" by Caleb (and this wording neither contests or affirms that he believes he raped her) and let her boyfriend think it was his so she could get out of the house (to escape her father or her father AND Caleb?). He feels he was used before he was even born; to him, this is behavior typical of Norma. In a phrase we've heard before during this episode, Norma says it "wasn't like that" and tearfully explains how young and powerless she was, and Dylan tears up too. I noticed that she's not denying the basic premise of what Dylan has said, just the idea of maliciously, selfishly using him. And of course that it was neither Dylan's fault nor hers. Dylan storms out, upset, before we know what he thinks now. Basically, I think he's fucked up and confused, and I get that.

So, yeah, it's a tragedy all around. I see them both as victims in this--Norma says it herself.

I feel like there are A LOT of scenes with Norma getting dressed and one of her sons walking in, hm?

Katy Perry's "Roar": priceless.

re: Norman telling Cody more than he tells Emma: I wonder whether this is because he already has a bit of a Madonna/Whore complex, i.e. Emma is GOOD with capital letters, therefore he can't tell her anything about the Dylan-Norma-Caleb revelations, whereas he sees Cody as a bad girl?

You make a good case for Dylan (and also the timing, i.e. it's still not 24 hours of finding out for him). I would like to point out, though, that in terms of Caleb being nicer to him than Norma generally is that this is a two way road. Obviously Norma must have started it back in Dylan's childhood, but when we first see them interact on the show in s1, it is Dylan who is dealing out the insults and making the accusations (while Norma counters with passive-aggressiveness and sometimes open hostility, but most of their early s1 scenes typically go: Dylan: strolls in, makes insullt, usually either about Norma's sex life or her clinginess with Norman; Norma: seethes, snaps back. She doesn't initialize). When they change their behaviour towards each other mid season after Shelby and the revelaton about Sam Bates, it is, again, a two way road: both of them start to treat the other differently. Norma starts conversations with Dylan, Dylan tries to help by bringing guests to the motel, neither of them pokes at the other, and it culminates with her openly asking him for help in the form of teaching her how to use a gun and the gun lesson, which is probably their closest moment to date. What I'm getting at here is that while I think Dylan's early s1 default mode of insulting Norma was probably the result of wanting attention (and even negative attention is attention) and figuring out this was one way to get it from her as a teenager, it still makes "he's been nicer to me than you ever were" a bit disingenious. Dylan didn't call Caleb a whore or told him he was crazy or insinuated Caleb must have killed his spouse during those two conversations they had before the big reveal. (Just as a point of comparison, Christine could probably describe Norma as one of the nicest people in the town based on their three or so encounters - during none of which she's seen Norma in attack mode, or Norma in possessive manipulative mode with Norman, nor Norma rejecting emotional overtures - because there were no situations yet where Norma would showcase her darker side, and because Christine has been consistently nice to Norma during those few encounters.) So for Dylan to compare Caleb's and Norma's behavior towards him, leaving aside "two or three meetings versus a life time", he'd have had to stroll into Caleb's motel room, declare he's moving in complete with sexual insult and barely veiled threat that he knows there is something fishy about the death of Caleb's hypothetical late spouse and he'll tell that to the local authorities.

Moving away from Dylan for a moment, and on to Caleb, do I think the fatherhood factor was news to him? Entirely possible, especially if Norma, as she later says, didn't tell him back then. It's also entirely possible he convinced himself she wanted to have sex with him; a lot of rapists do. But if Norma was 13 when it started (which is the age she names in her conversation with Norman), there is no way Caleb, who doesn't strike me as mentally handicapped, would have been unaware that she wasn't in a position to give meaningful consent even under the best of circumstances, which theirs were not. (I'm reminded of Samantha Greimer, Roman Polanski's victim, also 13 when she got raped, who when describing the whole encounter said she does believe he didn't think of it as rape. But she's equally clear on that this was exactly what it was.) And the phrase he himself used to describe young Norma to Dylan in their bar conversation - "a trusting little girl" - doesn't even sound as if he has mentally cast her as Lolita.

Re: the "why did you have me?" In retrospect, two things are very striking to me there - on the one hand, Dylan's self loathing expressed by the question, but on the other, also that the question reveals he thinks of Norma as she is now, an adult woman capable to make informed choices and to think things through (well, in a Norma way), to make calculations. It is understandable because most children (adult or not) do that, they cast their parents as adults a generation older because that was their experience. But when Norma got pregnant, she was a panicked teenager in a horrible situation with absolutely no one's help. Younger than Norman or Bradley. But until he's had more time to process, I suppose, he won't be able to consider that.

Discussion for tonight's episode.

I'm back to feeling sorry for Dylan due to his quasi-suicidal stunt. More about that later. Though may I just say, making Nick Ford's opposite number, the head of the other big drug cartel in town, an Overlady instead of another Overlord was inspired?

During the last week, it had occured to me that considering his house got just burned down, Sheriff Romero might move into the Bates Motel for a while, and lo and behold, he did, which was great to see and offered the chance for more scenes between him and Norma, each of which was golden. They were last season, too, but the emotional power has somewhat shifted, due to Norma not being desperately afraid anymore (well, not of Romero, anyway) and Alec Romero being somewhat rattled due to having an escalating drug war in town. Which makes for more equality and I must admit that somewhere around the time she bossed him into letting her disinfect his cuts, I realized I ship them a little. Not least because he hasn't made any attempt to blackmail her into anything so far and he's so openly morally ambiguous, unlike Vartan's character where you're waiting for the other shoe to drop. Also, there's definitely chemistry, and she's relaxed enough around him now to tease him into a smile. Mind you, given the looming Psycho future I should not wish for anything, because it would mean Romero would end up dead (and that relationship could even become the ultimate trigger for Norman), but still. They're just great fun to watch together.

Meanwhile, we find out what Nick Ford, aka one of the two big drug lords in town, wants from Norma, which is a facade for a move gainst the bypass. (What Ford has against the bypass, I don't know, considering that the drug trade would presumably benefit, too, but I guess we'll find out.) While what he asks Norma to do - file an injunction based on an environmental assessment he's had prepared - is a seemingly harmless and even smart move from her pov, it is of course just the first step and makes her beholden to him. Not to mention that before the episode is over, she finds out via Romero the city councilman who was the leader of Team Bypass just got killed, which is a drastic illustration (in case one is needed after Romero's warning) just what her new ally is capable of. (Something Norma is not yet aware of is that in addition to being a drug lord, Nick Ford is also the father of the late Blair Watson. I wonder whether Norman still has those pearls in the house? Because Nick Ford is bound to recognize them.)

Norma meets Cody, and it's mutual dislike on first sight, which was to be expected. (Though to be fair, even less neurotic parents than Norma would have objected to Cody's behaviour.) What was more interesting that Norma's slight detour in her conversation about Cody with Norman late in the episode - that line about girls trapped in unbearable circumstances being doomed and taking others with them - is an obvious self reference/projection. Now the audience knows, though Norma does not, that Cody does, in fact, live in an at least emotionally abusive domestic situation, due to the scene with her father. Which makes Norma's and Cody's mutual objections to another among other things a case of "takes one to know one", which in a different way is also true for Norman's and Cody's being drawn to another (which otherwise would happen a little to fast for me to believe it). I do wonder when the other shoe is going to drop with the Cody situation, though not for Norma's reasons but because if Norman had a functional sexual relationship, he would presumably get through his hangups before they become murderous (if they haven't already), and he wouldn't have his Psycho ending. Which means Norman telling Cody that he had previous blackouts will probably come back to haunt him instead of being therapeutic.

Given what an idiot Dylan's immediate superior was, it should have been obvious the reason why he had his position was that he was related to someone higher ranking. Dylan saving his life not in a small part to being in a suicidal mood results in Dylan finally meeting the head of the drug organisation he works for, who turns out to be the idiot's sister as well as the Overlady of that particular cartel. Which, as I said, was a refreshing twist; we already had enough evil powerful men in town. Of course, this will involve Dylan even deeper in the ongoing escalating drug war, while Norma has just gotten involved with Nick Ford (whom I don't see taking an "okay, that was that, bye, Nick" for an answer). Sheriff Romero undoubtedly will follow through with his threat that this was just the beginning to the idiot after having beaten up same, which considering the idiot is the Overlady's brother will put him on the hitlist of Dylan's organisation. And there's the ongoing ticking time bomb of the Norman-and-Miss-Bates open question. In short: the plot thickens, indeed.

In other news: the scene between Emma and Norma was lovely. Emma does bring out the best in Norma, possibly because a) they're not related, and b) Emma also doesn't remind Norma of herself, but it still made me wonder what kind of mother Norma would have been to a daughter.

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Bates Motel: Primer and Homebase

General Discussion

2.01 Gone But Not Forgotten

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2.02 Shadow of a Doubt

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2.03 Caleb

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2.04 Check-Out

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2.05 The Escape Artist

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