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tv_talk2025-07-28 11:40 am
yourlibrarian) wrote in tv_talk2025-07-28 11:40 am
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Penguin is DC's Andor
When person after person said they watched Penguin even when it was uncomfortable to keep going with it, it sounded rather familiar. I saw it with The Wire and especially with S2 of Andor. These were stories exploring the failures of systems, their purposes sabotaged by failing to account for personal agendas and human nature.
To me, Penguin and Andor share other similarities of the "it's so well written I had to see more" variety. Both are shows set within a franchise that do not feature the main features of that franchise, and which deal with the ruthlessness of societies in recognizable and everyday ways.
Andor is a show about the contrast between the bureaucracy of evil and the ugly underbelly of revolution. It doesn't even need to be about Star Wars as it would be a recognizable story to many interested in politics and society or political thrillers. Similarly, Penguin is a mafia story set in Gotham with a focus on personal ambition and the corruption of systems. It could have been its own show with no DC connection at all. Each only hints at some of the major figures in the original tales. Penguin begins with a unnatural disaster caused by Riddler and ends with the hint of a bat signal. In its final episodes, Andor touches on a belief in the Force, though it has nothing to do with the main story and is only tangential to Bix's motivation.
They also stay true to the nature of their genres. There are no good guys in mafia stories, though there are victims. But political thrillers always have someone trying to do the right thing while keeping their hands as clean as possible. There are always debates about methods, and the dangers of fighting the other side without becoming the enemy themselves. This is made very explicit in Andor's final arc with the politicians wanting nothing to do with Saw Gerrera's ruthless and paranoid form of resistance and sabotage.
These are both also stories about mentorship, though this is a much lighter thread in Andor and also less emotionally wrenching. This is probably because we see very little of Cassian and Luthen together but Oswald and Victor are the main characters and Victor is closely tied to him. What's more, Victor is barely out of childhood whereas Cassian is an adult at the time he is recruited, and he has decided to throw in with Luthen's network of his own free will.
These are also tragedies from the get go. We see much more of this in Penguin, both because of Victor's story and the flashbacks to Oswald's childhood. But Andor begins with the loss of Cassian's family, home, and way of life. He is rescued by Marva, who is a braver, more selfless, and ultimately more influential figure for many in the Andor story. Yet she and Penguin both end up taking on their orphans in an equally spur of the moment way.
Nonetheless, parenthood and family are much more intentional areas of exploration in Penguin whereas Andor utilizes community to explore its themes as well as develop its characters. This difference is stark, because in Penguin the self is the only person who matters. Although Oswald gives lip service to community and partnerships when it suits him, he never thinks of anyone but himself. When his underground lair is attacked he saves himself without a word of warning to anyone else. Even his devotion to his mother is something he does as a personal benefit and a long-term goal. Nothing could make this clearer than in his last scene where he ignores her wishes and keeps the shell of her with him even as he has someone else play out her role.
While Oswald isn't wrong that in his world personal attachments are dangerous to both parties, I think what he said to Victor at the end is only half true. I believe he was genuinely sorry for losing Victor, but given that Victor had just given him the upper hand by inciting a rebellion of right hand men among the gangs, I think he was also thinking he didn't want the same thing to happen to him down the line.
Victor himself is an interesting study, being a more Cassian-like figure in Penguin's world. Initially frustrated by his parents' lack of ambition and keenly aware of the way that people in lower classes were exploited, he nonetheless felt their loss keenly and could have become just as obsessive a searcher for them had there been any chance of their survival.
Although he joins Oswald because he fears for his life, and is always afraid of him, he ends up passing up his chance to escape with a girl he'd gladly have gone with pre-tragedy. His response is part fear, part loyalty but also part ambition. Like him, Oswald is very aware of being passed over, underestimated, and put down. Unlike Oswald though, Victor takes this less personally but with a keener awareness of wanting to change society as a whole. He's not without wanting to be someone respected and admired, and unlike Oswald knows less about how things are stacked against him. But he has hope, whereas Oswald has spite and ruthlessness. His moments of seeming kindness are more a matter of acknowledging his power over someone else, and spotting an opportunity.
His way of figuring out how to turn other people's both best and worst characteristics against them is indeed Oswald's talent. He is Iago. But he understands his world well, and has learned through bitter experience. I believe he never expected Carmine to do what he did to Sofia, though that he used the opportunity as soon as it presented itself is clear. And he also had no compunction about returning her to her nightmare rather than rid himself of her completely.
Although the Falcones are contrasted with the Maronis in terms of family as exploitative vs family with some nurturing instinct, the argument Penguin makes certainly seems to be that seeds can be bad from the start, and that they can get rapidly worse depending on how they're grown. Sofia still seems to have some lines she doesn't want to cross. But personal vengeance runs in her as well. Even if she believed she'd never get justice unless she took it into her own hands (quite possible in Gotham's corrupt state) one wonders whether her bid for power through bigger shares to her workers was just as much lip service as Oswald's was to the people of Crown Point.
We see very little of bureaucracy and political maneuvering on a city scale because until the end this is not Oswald's arena. But in many ways I see Syril as very similar to Victor. Although he has the deadly nurturing that Sofia has experienced, he too wants to be more than he is and had he been in a different system, chances are he could have been a positive force. His obsessiveness with justice and effectiveness sets him apart from his fellow low level workers, but his efforts to prove himself only end up harming others.
His capability and desire to impress lead him to Dedra, his Oswald. Like Oswald, Dedra is personally invested in Syril but thinks nothing of using him to her own ends to climb the ladder and gain personal power. Unlike Victor, Syril breaks away in the end, turns on her, and is appalled by what ends up transpiring on Ghorman. I saw his attack on Cassian as a way of reasserting what he saw to be the right thing to do in the face of the scale of wrongness happening around him. I think in his own mind he saw Cassian's actions as the problem that had led to this catastrophe, and if he could only bring him to justice the rest would have some meaning.
Syril never seems to challenge the system he lives in however, his views are always narrowly focused on particular problems. I see some of this in Victor as well, his thoughts mostly limited to Crown Point. Like Oswald, Dedra sees the bigger picture and how to maneuver it to her advantage or those of her higher ups. But however much Penguin makes the personal a negative, the groups still have their role. Penguin maneuvers the various gangs to work together, however deep their distrust of one another historically. I see this same thing happening in the nascent Rebellion. There are different groups, and different individuals within with their own allegiances. They are mistrustful of one another even as each is necessary in different ways. The Rebellion emerged from all of them. Despite the real role and necessity of framing the larger story in individuals, the warring collective is the focus of this story.
In Andor, the idea is that the system itself can be altered for people's benefit rather than harm. How well this works is a bigger issue that other stories such as Mandalorian and Ahsoka call into question. In Penguin, the gangs want to take power for themselves, but this is as much a form of survival for entire classes of people than to take the reins of a wider political power. As Gotham itself seems no prize for anyone, the focus on the self makes sense.
For the viewer, at least, the scope is always bigger. We're aware of the coming Rebellion, we're aware of the overall situation in Gotham. Andor and Penguin both manage to make the big small and personal, even as we see the building blocks of things to come.
In a side note, for those wanting more DC discussion, check outgotham_tv for commentary on that show.
To me, Penguin and Andor share other similarities of the "it's so well written I had to see more" variety. Both are shows set within a franchise that do not feature the main features of that franchise, and which deal with the ruthlessness of societies in recognizable and everyday ways.
Andor is a show about the contrast between the bureaucracy of evil and the ugly underbelly of revolution. It doesn't even need to be about Star Wars as it would be a recognizable story to many interested in politics and society or political thrillers. Similarly, Penguin is a mafia story set in Gotham with a focus on personal ambition and the corruption of systems. It could have been its own show with no DC connection at all. Each only hints at some of the major figures in the original tales. Penguin begins with a unnatural disaster caused by Riddler and ends with the hint of a bat signal. In its final episodes, Andor touches on a belief in the Force, though it has nothing to do with the main story and is only tangential to Bix's motivation.
They also stay true to the nature of their genres. There are no good guys in mafia stories, though there are victims. But political thrillers always have someone trying to do the right thing while keeping their hands as clean as possible. There are always debates about methods, and the dangers of fighting the other side without becoming the enemy themselves. This is made very explicit in Andor's final arc with the politicians wanting nothing to do with Saw Gerrera's ruthless and paranoid form of resistance and sabotage.
These are both also stories about mentorship, though this is a much lighter thread in Andor and also less emotionally wrenching. This is probably because we see very little of Cassian and Luthen together but Oswald and Victor are the main characters and Victor is closely tied to him. What's more, Victor is barely out of childhood whereas Cassian is an adult at the time he is recruited, and he has decided to throw in with Luthen's network of his own free will.
These are also tragedies from the get go. We see much more of this in Penguin, both because of Victor's story and the flashbacks to Oswald's childhood. But Andor begins with the loss of Cassian's family, home, and way of life. He is rescued by Marva, who is a braver, more selfless, and ultimately more influential figure for many in the Andor story. Yet she and Penguin both end up taking on their orphans in an equally spur of the moment way.
Nonetheless, parenthood and family are much more intentional areas of exploration in Penguin whereas Andor utilizes community to explore its themes as well as develop its characters. This difference is stark, because in Penguin the self is the only person who matters. Although Oswald gives lip service to community and partnerships when it suits him, he never thinks of anyone but himself. When his underground lair is attacked he saves himself without a word of warning to anyone else. Even his devotion to his mother is something he does as a personal benefit and a long-term goal. Nothing could make this clearer than in his last scene where he ignores her wishes and keeps the shell of her with him even as he has someone else play out her role.
While Oswald isn't wrong that in his world personal attachments are dangerous to both parties, I think what he said to Victor at the end is only half true. I believe he was genuinely sorry for losing Victor, but given that Victor had just given him the upper hand by inciting a rebellion of right hand men among the gangs, I think he was also thinking he didn't want the same thing to happen to him down the line.
Victor himself is an interesting study, being a more Cassian-like figure in Penguin's world. Initially frustrated by his parents' lack of ambition and keenly aware of the way that people in lower classes were exploited, he nonetheless felt their loss keenly and could have become just as obsessive a searcher for them had there been any chance of their survival.
Although he joins Oswald because he fears for his life, and is always afraid of him, he ends up passing up his chance to escape with a girl he'd gladly have gone with pre-tragedy. His response is part fear, part loyalty but also part ambition. Like him, Oswald is very aware of being passed over, underestimated, and put down. Unlike Oswald though, Victor takes this less personally but with a keener awareness of wanting to change society as a whole. He's not without wanting to be someone respected and admired, and unlike Oswald knows less about how things are stacked against him. But he has hope, whereas Oswald has spite and ruthlessness. His moments of seeming kindness are more a matter of acknowledging his power over someone else, and spotting an opportunity.
His way of figuring out how to turn other people's both best and worst characteristics against them is indeed Oswald's talent. He is Iago. But he understands his world well, and has learned through bitter experience. I believe he never expected Carmine to do what he did to Sofia, though that he used the opportunity as soon as it presented itself is clear. And he also had no compunction about returning her to her nightmare rather than rid himself of her completely.
Although the Falcones are contrasted with the Maronis in terms of family as exploitative vs family with some nurturing instinct, the argument Penguin makes certainly seems to be that seeds can be bad from the start, and that they can get rapidly worse depending on how they're grown. Sofia still seems to have some lines she doesn't want to cross. But personal vengeance runs in her as well. Even if she believed she'd never get justice unless she took it into her own hands (quite possible in Gotham's corrupt state) one wonders whether her bid for power through bigger shares to her workers was just as much lip service as Oswald's was to the people of Crown Point.
We see very little of bureaucracy and political maneuvering on a city scale because until the end this is not Oswald's arena. But in many ways I see Syril as very similar to Victor. Although he has the deadly nurturing that Sofia has experienced, he too wants to be more than he is and had he been in a different system, chances are he could have been a positive force. His obsessiveness with justice and effectiveness sets him apart from his fellow low level workers, but his efforts to prove himself only end up harming others.
His capability and desire to impress lead him to Dedra, his Oswald. Like Oswald, Dedra is personally invested in Syril but thinks nothing of using him to her own ends to climb the ladder and gain personal power. Unlike Victor, Syril breaks away in the end, turns on her, and is appalled by what ends up transpiring on Ghorman. I saw his attack on Cassian as a way of reasserting what he saw to be the right thing to do in the face of the scale of wrongness happening around him. I think in his own mind he saw Cassian's actions as the problem that had led to this catastrophe, and if he could only bring him to justice the rest would have some meaning.
Syril never seems to challenge the system he lives in however, his views are always narrowly focused on particular problems. I see some of this in Victor as well, his thoughts mostly limited to Crown Point. Like Oswald, Dedra sees the bigger picture and how to maneuver it to her advantage or those of her higher ups. But however much Penguin makes the personal a negative, the groups still have their role. Penguin maneuvers the various gangs to work together, however deep their distrust of one another historically. I see this same thing happening in the nascent Rebellion. There are different groups, and different individuals within with their own allegiances. They are mistrustful of one another even as each is necessary in different ways. The Rebellion emerged from all of them. Despite the real role and necessity of framing the larger story in individuals, the warring collective is the focus of this story.
In Andor, the idea is that the system itself can be altered for people's benefit rather than harm. How well this works is a bigger issue that other stories such as Mandalorian and Ahsoka call into question. In Penguin, the gangs want to take power for themselves, but this is as much a form of survival for entire classes of people than to take the reins of a wider political power. As Gotham itself seems no prize for anyone, the focus on the self makes sense.
For the viewer, at least, the scope is always bigger. We're aware of the coming Rebellion, we're aware of the overall situation in Gotham. Andor and Penguin both manage to make the big small and personal, even as we see the building blocks of things to come.
In a side note, for those wanting more DC discussion, check out
gotham_tv for commentary on that show.
no subject
no subject
In truth, I'd expected Syril to skewer his mother with a meat fork a long time ago 😉
no subject
An interesting difference to me is that Dedra ends up getting punished by the system she tried to exploit. She is in a horrible place at the end and lost everything. Oswald came out on top, but did pay the price of losing his mother and presumably someone he did care about.
no subject